Episode 105:


Kenn Bosak


Tatiana Moroz

Discussing Tokenization of Collectables

HodlCast 105


Live from Miami, FL – this installment of the HodlCast comes to you from the hustle and bustle of one of the largest Cryptocurrency conferences in the nation, with guests from the art and lifestyle space, to give a more human perspective to developments in this oft-reduced-to-finance space.

Kenn is a Cryptocurrency ‘nomad’ who uses Crypto for most if not all of his exchanges. He gets into his history with the technology, as well as stumbling blocks he experienced in transitioning to Crypto for personal finance. Tatiana is a singer-songwriter and fellow podcaster that heads up the Crypto Media Hub.

The dynamic trio discuss Blockchain in gaming, fortnite and parenting, and the connection with game monetization and the gambling industry. Tatiana offers a more conservative and measured perspective on the matter, acknowledging the potential for addiction and exploitation while Kenn takes the “all in” position.

The debate transitions to the dehumanizing aspects of connected technology, leading down some heady paths, but before it gets too off the rails, we pivot to the legality of game assets and NFTs. They come with a lot of regulatory baggage, but the potential payoff could be great for the right business.

Our guests drill down into the nitty-gritty of developments in the space, parsing the current mores of the legality from a practical, holistic lens that sheds light on what real users want to see. You can listen to the full thing wherever podcasts are available, or read the full transcript below:


Full Episode Transcript:

Tatiana Moroz (00:00):

Welcome to this special addition, a simulcast, partnership galore with Tasha, Hodder of the HODL cast. This is of course, is your hostess with the moistest, Tatiana Moroz. Josh of course, is not with me because I am in Miami and we’re here talking with Kenny Bozak who is also….. wait, why can’t I call you Kenny?

Kenn Bosak (00:16):

Oh, you can, but you’re definitely going to be the only one that’s ever called me Kenny Bozak. It’s not that I didn’t like it, it’s just nobody else has ever done that.

Sasha Hodder (00:25):

I’ve been watching a lot of South park lately so the name Kenny brings up a lot of memories.

Tatiana Moroz: Okay, well we’re testing it out. Audience members. Tell us what you think. So yeah, great to have you guys both here. So is this your first Miami Bitcoin conference?

Kenn Bosak (00:41):

This is my second. I came, uh, I think two years ago when we had the after party at club 11 and there was the whole drama around that.

Tatiana Moroz (00:49):

Oh yeah. I wasn’t here that year. What happened? Like they had it at a strip club or something.

Sasha Hodder:

Yeah, I was there. It wasn’t really a strip club. It was a club that had dancers.

Kenn (00:58):

at 11 o’clock at night. It became a strip club. Yeah. It was just a bar until then.

Tatiana (01:03):

That sounded really great for business. Um, I mean, depending on who you are, but any who. So what do you think? Are you having fun? What’s the deal? What have you been up to lately? Well, we just saw each other in New Jersey. That was really fun. That was a panel where I ate chicken wings while on the panel, which was crazy. No, I’m not kidding. For some reason I thought, okay.

Kenn (01:22):

Uh, yeah, that, that was cool. It was a weird little meetup kind of thing. That was fun. And uh, where was that at? In New Jersey. Elizabeth. Elizabeth? Yeah. It’s a terminal. They accept like Bitcoin and light coin for like beer and stuff. That was cool.

Tatiana (01:33):

Oh really? I didn’t even know that. I just kind of went there and we did the talk. That was fun though, either way.


So can you tell us the story of all these tattoos?

Kenn: (01:42):

So yeah. You guys can’t see, but uh, I have two Bitcoin tattoos like Bitcoin on that.


Is it a working QR code?

Kenn: Oh yeah. So the one tattoo, it’s a QR code is a receiving address. My first Bitcoin receiving address I ever opened my first wallet ever. Unfortunately that was a Coinbase wallet, so I never had the private keys. The irony. I ended up learning that QR codes don’t look for like the black in the pattern, right? Like you would assume by looking at the QR code that black is what the camera or whatever is looking for. Like when you have a barcode, you’re looking at the black, like that’s the main thing that matters. It’s actually the white lines. They get the negative in between the black and I’m not like white enough for the camera to realize the differences between the tones and a QR codes.

Sasha: (02:29):]

Could you get a real working QR code?


It’s hard. It has to be big, has to be probably only link your pecs, real flat surface, because cure wallets have a security measure in where if that wallet is what they think is 30% corrupted, like distort, stored it and may give it false data, it’ll like nor any input so it can get data from a corrupt, a QR code look the image, but it knows that it’s most likely not going to be a five. It could have been an S Oh, we got the QR code wrong because it was distorted. So the wallet just says, eh, can’t scan it. So that’s my skin moving the colors not being perfect fading. You talked to Brock Pierce, uh, this was a while ago and Barcelona and I, we were talking about the tattoo and he’s, you know, he’s like, he knows about QR codes and why, what, how they work. And he was like, dude, you should’ve got the, uh, the chip, you know, and I’m like, I will. So, uh, me and him were talking and I think eventually one of these days I’m going to go with Brock to one of his buddies. So you know, it’s not like some tattoo shop that could just do whatever they want to. My chip, it’s going to be, you know, somebody I can trust their trust and you know, whatever. But I want to get a chip here. So when you tap it, it pre-populates my Bitcoin address and then the text field.

Sasha (03:36):

Oh my God. Imagine if it could pop out 3d and be like, Hey, it’s Kenn.

Kenn (03:42):

Wow. I mean that’s possible. Like Pokemon go style, augmented reality. Yeah. Yeah. There’s an artist Josie, you know, she has a really cool art that if you take out this camera app and you look at the tee shirt that her art’s on or it comes to life. So my tattoo, you’re right, it could do that. She could help me make that.

Tatiana (03:59):

Yeah. We’ve been talking about a lot of fun kind of artsy projects. We just took a look at this NFT for Ross. What do you think about that? That was pretty cool. I think you’re the one who told me about that project.

Kenn (04:09):

Yeah, so I’m actually a semi early investor. I guess if you would have, or you want to call it just for unbiased or for biased opinion. I did buy one of the first physical NFTs ever created period. That was a Ross NFT. So I have a physical nice piece of silver behind that is the private key where I could redeem this NFT for Ross. Where’d you get that? Uh, I got it from digital bowls and it’s really weird and hard to say. Digital bowls. Digital herbals. Google them. Yeah. See digitible – I got it from Steve Wand, a guy I’ve known for a few years now. Like we’re talking three or four years. I’ve known this guy in this space and just as an attendee of conferences or whatever, just randomly seeing them at meetups even at things all around the world.

Sasha (04:58):

It’s really upbeat when you meet Steve. He gives me a good feeling.


You’ll never meet a single person in this space that has something bad to say about the guy and I, we’ve actually for years talked about NFTs and gaming and you know these non fungible tokens and how like fighting the banks and currency Wars and all this isn’t really like going to be that snowball that starts to roll down. They held, it becomes that big thing that you know the mass adoption, we both looked at it more along the lines of like this very small effect where these kids are getting into it, playing these video games where these assets are scarce, they’re tokenized, they have ownership. You can rent out your skin and grant that thought, Oh because you have a one of five Lamborghinis in grand theft auto. Maybe you’re a lucky kid.

Kenn (05:38):

You get a really cool mission, you’ve got a really rare card. You can sell it to some adults who didn’t have time cause he has work. He didn’t get to play the game as much as the kid, you know, so like these kids are going to be getting, you know, just like Ninja does playing Fortnite they’re going to be getting these exclusive in game content. That’s asset ownership of all right, these digital things and a, I think what he’s doing, the free Ross campaign and using the proof of concept of physical and FTS, you know like imagine going to a crane machine game, putting in a couple of dollars and you move around the crane machine ball and you pick up the ball and it drops and you open it and it’s a crypto kitty plushy and you pull the tag off, you sweep the private key and there’s your, there’s your plushy, you have a crypto kitty physically in your hand and you also have the ERC seven 21 non fudgeable token in your wallet and maybe it’s a gen zero, a really rare one or maybe not whatever. And you can breed them. So like I think that this is where it’s going to start, like where people are just going to have this gamified mentality of money.

Sasha (06:33):

Well you guys, here’s a little story. I recently became a stepmom to a 10 year old, Jeff’s son. And he, he’d probably be pissed if I say this, but he literally gets tears when you tell him he has to come off fortnite sometimes. Like they, these kids are addicted to the games. If they could be earning crypto during it, screw working at McDonald’s or driving Uber.

Kenn (06:53):

right. I mean, imagine back, you know, when I was playing Pokemon all the time and I would get, you know, I do the same thing. I cry when my mom pulled me away from playing a trading card game with my brother cause we had to go to bed a little. Did she know 10 years later a chars art’s worth, I think about the same as an ounce of gold. Uh, you can, you can Google this. It’s insane. Like one of the legacy chars are, is the holograph. It’s like 13 $1,500 for one of these cards. And I had tons of them that, you know, my mom was just like, throw them away. You’re wasting your time. Go do your homework. And meanwhile I was making a portfolio that could’ve bought me. My charges are Lambo by now. So a key, I think that perspective that parents had when you go on eBay and you see a Furby going for six figures, you’re like, how many Furbies and I throw away because I didn’t want to move with them or something and now they want to instill that on their children.

Kenn (07:41):

Right? Like your people buy their kids. There’s tickle me Elmos back when tickling me almost take it off. The parents knew reflectively looking back like these are going to be worth something. This isn’t for you to play with. This is for you to sell on eBay when you’re in college. W pay for some tuition. That’s what the tickle me Elmo for was for Christmas. It was an investment, not a toy and that’s what’s going to be happening with these digital assets, these plushy, crypto kitties, these things like that Steve wands is doing and I think that there’s another company like Silicon nexus. Not no way partner with these guys at all. I don’t have any of that, but I do have that free Ross thing, which is cool, but they have these vending machines for NFTs. So imagine going to the bar and you can get a crypto kitty because you were playing a bar game, you know, like it’s really cool.

Sasha (08:21):

I like all this stuff. Obviously I think it’s going to make pulling slot machines at Vegas a complete thing of the past. Like you need, people need so much more stimulation in the games they get now.


But I will say this, I guess the only thing I have that’s negative, I think that this use case has always been probably one of the most exciting. I remember when the spells of Genesis guys came on my show and I hate games cause my brother was addicted to them. I don’t think that they’re healthy. So yeah, basically I don’t think that everybody should not get real jobs and just play video games because I don’t like video games. Answer that question. And I’m not sure that people get like good social skills from playing video games. They do now. It’s four teams and they’re building their friendships with these other people that they’re playing with and they trust them and they’re like getting leadership skills. And I’m starting to see like this is gonna be the skillset for the future. So I was unplugging the game and saying three hours, only on the weekends. The week time you can’t play. But now I think it’s like that’s his thing. That’s the sports of the kids. Now that’s the NBA player trade. Maybe they should get off of their butts and play actual sports. Sorry, I’m still putting in like some reality. I mean I get it, but work out an hour a day,

Kenn (09:31):

putting your phone down, getting off of Facebook for whatever, the three hours. But it’s not like you’re walking out to the park to go in and shake hands with strangers. Like you go and do what you’re adding friends on Facebook. You’re not subsidizing the one for the other. You’re not, Oh, I’m going to put my phone down now because I spent three hours on Facebook. I’m going to go to the park and introduce myself to some strangers and see, Oh, I want to go like your shirt. I’m going to say nice shoes to a stranger. Like you don’t do that. In reality, Oh you have to just see the sun

Speaker 2 (09:59):

Some people are just non playable characters just roaming around. It’s going to be what it is like. I love this analogy. You can look back where before smart phones were a thing in that meme of all the people standing by, like in a crowd staring at their phones, there was crowds that people just reading newspapers because introverts will always be introverts and antisocial. People will always be antisocial people and that internet that that video game like Fortnite, that digital interaction is the only way people do get a social engagement because they choose to opt out of the reality. Even if there isn’t or is a digital version,

Tatiana (10:28):

no way man. Kids are still being formed. They could still be social. You got to send your kid out, play into the think run around, solve real world problems. You can’t live inside of video. Forced them to play little league and they’re still gonna always want to have sex so they need some physical, they need to maybe hang out together to play the games or something. But I bet they’re going to get into like, you know, some kind of virtual dating and these games too. Well there’s porn smart flashlights coming soon. Oh that’s just gross gamer girlfriends where it’s all around the world. Yeah. It’s not like in ready player one he’s got that girlfriend. It’s

Kenn (11:04):

almost like decentralized relationships or like tokenized relationships yourself. Everybody has a share as they can. Like this girl, she has like 10 E boy boyfriends and she, when she plays a game, she’s doing a mission like and they all help. Wait. Why don’t you watch these like Twitch girl streamers, you know who have like all these boyfriends on, you know the play with my boyfriend, I’m playing with my boy. It’s always a different username. It’s interesting, you know, it’s all just kind of like a show. It’s an act, it’s a TV show. There been your streamer or content creator anymore and like to see like, you know, the engagement being mean or the relationships being meaned in E culture in, in that co, in the internet of culture, like, Oh, uh, polygamy and monogamy is such a joke cause you ain’t going to get an STD from looking at somebody’s news and tapping. So like problems of one-on-one relationships, monogamy and plugging me, it doesn’t apply to the internet. So like open relationships happen more discussing it, horrified

Tatiana (11:54):

by the concept of humanities dating. Like, have you ever been on Tinder or a dating app? It’s already hellish enough. If we were limited to that thing, blow my brains out. Are you kidding me?

Kenn (12:03):

If I, Oh, if I only could go to orgies in real life, I couldn’t choose between the ones on the PornHub live streams or something. You know, maybe I’d never get to see an orgy, but I don’t want to go to the physical one. I want to tune into the virtual one so I can have an experience because I’m antisocial. There’s just things for, you know, uh,

Tatiana (12:22):

humanity needs to be social. Like you need to try and do that.

Kenn (12:25):

Well. It’s just how sociality evolves being social back when humanity, I punched you with a rock because I thought you were going to hit me with a rock. I don’t know that was being social and next thing you know it’s so how do you do sir? How do you, that’s antisocial. Actually that was so antisocial would have been running in the opposite direction of full speed because you were so afraid. Jesus Christ, this is really evolve to devolve Sasha, what are your thoughts? My podcast always supposed to be a little bit of a loss. So what can we talk about legally here? Okay. Are the end game app tokens, do they need an MSB license because they’re technically tokens and they’re transmitting from one person to the other? I know you’re a lawyer. You might have a really interesting question for this and I hope I don’t start a conversation.

Sasha (13:09):

I, I just thought maybe we should edit that question out because they probably do and we don’t want to go there.


I have a question that is pretty serious about this and it all wraps up. It’s all a great segue. Guys. Have genius wax that IO, right? Op skins. Yeah, I know those guys. They’re tokenizing in game assets. They’re very successful. And listen, listen, listen, it doesn’t need an MSB registration. So I think they get out of it that way. But these little kids are speculating on these end game assets and they’re basically gambling. That’s the same as buying a beanie baby or a Tesla. It’s not the same as buying an investment contract. But the beanie baby doesn’t have a utility in a game, right? There’s no excess utility buying just here’s the beanie beat. What about for condos? But no, no. Hear me out though.

Kenn (13:49):

I’m selling you a beanie baby. And then saying it potentially might have utility in this platform and then takes it further away from security on MSP. I make an environment, uh, you know, not as loose anonymously that utilizes that beanie baby. Maybe it’s a special utility. If you have this beanie baby, you’re like the King of this castle. When people have to pay you a dividend to use your land and stuff. Now that’s a security. Or if I’m selling you this NFT right for a game. And that’s not even an America and Europe. That’s the only test for whether something’s a security is if it pays a dividend, it’s amazing. And what if I’m selling these entities, these end game assets specifically for video game, right? Cause that’s kinda what wax is doing with some of these things are platforms are doing. I think if you add a service into the dividend, it creates a different thing there too.

Kenn (14:36):

There’s ways to do it without making it as a security token aspect though. Right? Like they don’t have the platform to use it. So how is it a utility token before? These are platforms that you utilize the NFT utility token when they’re using the utility token to the platform. That is a security, by definition, you got to build the platform first year. I’m not being as you know, cause the ICS, I was just, I don’t want to implicate a wax. I love wax. I really do genuinely love wax. I have my own collectible that I went out on my way to get old on their platforms. It’s just, it’s just a genuine concern that I do have because you’re going to have these children making potential six figures and then what happens when you know they’re doing whatever behind mommy that he’s back with all this money and mommy and daddy are held to the tax reasons. When you know all this stuff hits the fan. It’s kind of a wait and see problem because we’re not there yet. And you know what? I respect the fact that you’re just going to ask for forgiveness when whatever happens happens cause they’re not going to worry about the boogeyman of regulations creeping under their bed when it may not even bite cause there is no boogeyman.

Tatiana (15:37):

Okay. There’s definitely a boogeyman. I always get a little concerned with breaking any kind of laws and I’m always really cautious. We’ve been with token FM and like everything like that because if you have a political view that challenges the government like we’ve seen, that can really be used against you and they can selectively enforce things against people like that. So that always concerns me. I mean look at even the bear. Yeah, don’t poke the bear. I mean it with Ross Ulbricht. I mean they cited his political views in the sentencing, so I don’t think that we can be risky. I don’t know. Especially when you’re bringing like artists and creators into it because they’re sort of unsuspecting, they don’t really necessarily understand this kind of thing. So I would always want to make sure that they were safe.

Kenn (16:15):

Risk is relevant, you know, it depends on what your options are, your tolerance level and all that. Right? Like maybe you don’t have any other alternatives or options in here. This is the only route you can go or X, Y, and Z. But I do dig it. Like if you can, you know, that’s why the U S is almost like currency appropriating crypto. The U S has no reason to be using Bitcoin at all. What they’re doing is just speculating on the utility of it and the utility, the use case right now is like in Venezuela and places like that.

Tatiana (16:39):

Well the U S dollar could collapse so people can be using it for that and as a way of withdrawing. Yeah, but you’re also withdrawing. It’s a way to voting when you put your money. Like I use my Bitcoin and I stay in Bitcoin because I would rather just not contribute to the system at all. Like if you guys, I’m taking my money out,

Kenn (16:53):

do you have like a choice? Right. And the risk reward ratio is a little bit different. Venezuela doesn’t really have so much of a choice and the risk reward ratio is way harder, right? Like they’re making Bitcoin mining. Even like way more legal in Venezuela because of the way electricity’s, you know, distributed there and the way it’s kind of being taken advantage of in Venezuela and they’re opting out of the local currency to get this free money essentially from there, you know, mining because of the way electricity works in Venezuela. So like people in the U S or anybody in these first world countries that are really investing in crypto, you’re making money off the fact that Bitcoin is providing a utility in places where people don’t have choice. Right. You’re, you have a, you have a share in the lifeboat of the Titanic’s crash. You’re not on the Titanic.

Kenn (17:33):

You’re invested in those lifeboats though. And when anybody wants to hop on that lifeboat, the ticket they bought to get on it, you sold it to them cause you pre purchase a share in it. You knew the boat was going to crash, but you were already on land. You never got on the boat. And that’s what we were already, there were early adopters were early. And you know, it’s, it’s the time we really start telling, showing people where the lifeboats are, you know, and, and our benefit, our profit is the scarcity, right? So the less Bitcoin in circulation, the more people that use it, the more of the early adopters Bitcoins that they bought is worth more. So we have the incentive to keep that arm ramp going. We’re a self incentivized, so we give more people Bitcoin and they’re like, my Uber drivers, my waitress give them some Bitcoin.

Kenn (18:14):

They’re going to eventually see that and be self incentivized to, you know, get their friend in on it. What if they, what if you give them Bitcoin and then they never use it. It just sits there and it never happens. Anything to happen to it. Or what if we get a U S dollar stable coin? I mean, uh, so first, uh, if they lose it or anything or, you know, do whatever with it, great scarcity. You know, if a ship carrying a tons of gold crashes in the ocean and they cannot revive that goal, my grandma’s necklaces just got way more value ball, you know, so whatever. If you don’t use this ads, if you do, you don’t. That’s the perk of Bitcoin. If you’re the only one who has all of it, it ain’t worth anything. If I have two Bitcoin and I give one Bitcoin away strategically or whatever, even in general and hold one Bitcoin, now my one Bitcoin is worth more than the two.

Kenn (18:58):

Whatever have been supply, demand, utility, scarcity. It’s basic math. One-on-one is two, two and one make three. What about the stable coin idea? So I think stable coins are going to be what every Bitcoin maximalists has that fever dream. Bitcoin would be stable. Coins are going to be mess it up. The stable coins are, that’s it. Stable coins are what you wanted Bitcoin to be five years ago, 10 years ago, 11 years, whatever. A stable coins. Yup. Yeah. Why? Because Bitcoin can’t be mass adopted without government regulation enforcing it with their military saying you have to use this, a Bitcoin to buy your crude oil or war UN agree, right? No, that’s not going to happen. They’re going to replace the U S dollar with this U S stable coin, like the petrodollar, Petro coin, whatever, and that will be enforced backed by the governments. You better use it.

Kenn (19:45):

UN’s agreement. That’s how it will be. Mass adopted. Bitcoin will be that, you know when you go to the tattoo parlor or the bar or whatever and they’re like, Hey, we accept cash. You know, you’re going to charge you that tax and we’ll give you 10% off because visa screws us in taxes and Bitcoin will be that alternative to what cash used to be. They’ll probably already have the technology set up to easily accept the U S dollar stable coins. So getting Bitcoin will be just as easy for them. In a sense. That’s true, right. Doing a lot of the leg work for us, when you see a, they block it in an app store for example. Well, I mean that’s within, they have more, I mean if you were to make risk reward, right? If you made Bitcoin illegal, it would just make it worth more money.

Kenn (20:24):

It’s not going to make it worth less. If you made her win legal, it would be worth a lot less cause there’s not as much risk associated with the sale of it. Right. They’re incentivized not to go like Trump’s never, in my opinion, I don’t think Trump’s going to go pick coins illegal. Anybody in the U S while. Why? Because everybody that’s stuck holding it, it’s almost like you’re stuck holding a bag of heroin and everybody that wants to buy some, it’s almost like you’re in this corner like, Hey, who got that? Who got that Bitcoin, bro. Now you see the supply demand, the risk of reward and everything increase. The dark market creates value. Kidneys are worth a lot of money because they’re really hard to get.

Sasha (20:54):

I love this interview. It’s very funny. Kenn, I’ve never talked to you like in such a long format and you have really insightful views on this stuff. I’m really enjoying this. Thank you.

Kenn (21:05):

I appreciate it. I just, I just really believe in this, you know, I’ve never felt the experience of faith before Bitcoin or for before crypto. I never felt like what I seen people like in church and religious, like I’ve gone to synagogues, I’ve gone to temples, they’re going to do what I love the concept of religion. I’ve like kind of studied it and it’s like ology. And uh, I’ve just never felt that. I’ve always just experienced it through like observation. And now when I’m at these conferences, I feel like I’m in church and when I look at these people work in the venue, I’m like, I get it. I know you don’t, you don’t feel that you don’t get it. But I do. Now this is my faith. I believe in decentralization. I believe in permissionless, I believe in uncompensated ability and just what I believe in and it’s embodied in Bitcoin and it’s just amazing that I can, nobody can kick me out of this. I can’t get fired for being mean in crypto. People can just choose to opt out of working with me or you know, fucking with me. They can opt out of it, but they can’t just, eh, you can’t be a part of this. Like visa and PayPal can just be like, no, you can’t be a part of this. You don’t exist anymore.

Tatiana (22:09):

We forget they could kill you man.


We forgot our name tags. We had to get scanned, go out, get a new name tags, printing it, scanned on the way in and the girls on the way in, we’re like, Oh, do it. Cause he’s watching like their boss was, you know, they got in trouble for letting us in without the things the first time. And I was just thinking, imagine living and working with someone breathing down your neck saying, Oh you did this little one thing wrong. Like it’s, Bitcoin’s given a lot of people the freedom to travel and work from home and it’s just made life a lot more enjoyable, so much more colorful.


I love life on Bitcoin.

Kenn (22:45):

Yeah. I mean that’s just like a over managing or over oversight in general, right. Like everybody that was working in that counter is almost like a governance, right? Not a gov. He’s the government. They’re the governance, right? Like if you were doing something that was really going to get us in trouble, like us in trouble, not just you in trouble. I mean, I can, if I can see if we all work together, blah, blah, blah. We’re a part of the same team. You’re letting people in without checking their badges and you’re not going to be the only one getting in trouble, right? We all are. That is the incentive of governance, right? We should all work together. Not having somebody breathing over a neck with a government model, their view of what is right or wrong. It should be the consensus. If they knew that you were already in without a ticket, the governance was like, Hey, governance model voted over 51% agreement. Get in there. You’re good to go. This government model came in and centrally it said, no, they voided the transaction.

Tatiana (23:32):

By the way, we’re, we are supposed to wear our passes like we’re, we’re wrong for not having them. They shouldn’t want people to randomly walk in without passes cause then they lose money. So it would actually be theft if we were, if we were being bad. So just for the record, while appreciate the point, you know, we were wrong for not having the badges.

Kenn (23:48):

I’m sure Moe would have given me a ticket if I asked, but I snuck in just for the fact that I knew I could and I always do and I just want to stay me for that fat. I don’t want to go into somebody’s email and say, Hey, I’m an influencer. I go to a bunch of followers. Can I get free stuff? Look, you know, it’s just, it feels so grimy and slimy. I’d rather ask for forgiveness rather than permission. You feel me? Like if he most cool, we took picture. We’re at the bar, we’re talking, he knows I’m here, whatever

Kenn (24:17):

I mean, yeah, he doesn’t care. As long as I have a badge, somebody bought it, whatever. They gave it to me on their way out. Their first hour they were here, they had to get back on a plane and go be a speaker somewhere else. But that’s like sort of the thing is, uh, these events, you can just, you can get a lot out of it without buying a ticket. You know, somebody may gift you there is when they’re leaving or a, you may meet them in the lobby. Anyway, these things are expensive. It’s 800 bucks. I mean, they could have asked every booth that was here for a couple hundred bucks more and just said, Hey, it’s a, you know, 200 bucks coming out. Like w, you know, to get more people here. This is amazing. But you’ve been here before 2017 18 I mean, there was so many more people.

Tatiana (24:54):

Yeah. But this is like a lull year. Oh. Lots of things that are kind of lower in attendance. Everything’s lower, but the price cost $1,500 one year, not the year of the big boom. It was around 700 but then the next year it was like 15 I that might be off, but I remember being very good.

Kenn (25:10):

Yeah. Well, there’s, I mean, I understand the reason for this. The same reason, uh, the wall street journal charges more for ad space today even though they have less, uh, viewers or less subscribers, but the quality of those subscribers is 10 X, right? So it’s like, that’s why you’ve seen the tape. Maybe it’s because of the quality and all that. I get all of that. It’s hard to see these speakers and presenters on stage talk about mass adoption. How do we get mass adoption? How do we get people into this space? And you know, the answer is well, not charging them $800 to get in dummy.

Tatiana (25:40):

Yeah. I mean, all the crypto stuff that I’ve been trying to do lately, I want to do it for free. Like the Vento we had in The Bahamas is free. The comedy and music thing in New York was free.

Kenn (25:49):

Right? But the booths did pay and I’m sure the boost all would’ve paid a couple hundred bucks, maybe even $2,000 more to get more eyes on them then more money at ticket sales. Right. And I feel like that’s my, I’m hoping that we see this donation-based business model coin mention Alex. He’s doing a completely free conference in Philly, a coin invention and he’s doing it on a donation based model and based on the amount of donations we get, crypto people are kind of stingy sometimes. No, no, I get that. But like imagine if you do want to go, like he’s going to try to figure all this out, word it up. But like imagine if you want to see an expander speak at this conference. You don’t have to buy a ticket to, but maybe you could put five bucks or 10 bucks towards helping him fly in and paying the speaker fee or whatever it may be.

Kenn (26:30):

You want to see Lyn show up to a conference. I want to put 10 or 20 bucks towards that and I’m going not even be able to make it at a conference. So I, instead of buying for $800 ticket to come here, maybe I just wanted to donate 20 bucks to this conference. Help Lynn get here. And I think that the donation based model may help because it’s more of a communal thing. Like at the end of the day, these are cash grabs and it’s, that may or may not be intentional or whatever, but the ticket sales at the end of the day, you’re always put in Fiat. No one’s holdable in Bitcoin for ticket sales for a conference. You know, it’s a business. They need to do business things. They have bank accounts, not Bitcoin wallets, and they have to pay their speakers. They have to fly them in, fly the mail and do all this stuff, pay for the venue. So I get it. It’s a, it’s a business model, but I think this, they need to flip the script to the, make the, the sponsors pay more this, the booths pay more and maybe find the speakers that they shouldn’t be paying for. They should be paying to get on the stage to reimburse and get this, make this entry barrier less. Some people, you know, don’t even have $800 worth of Bitcoin. How the heck they’re going to come here to learn about why they should put $800 in.

Tatiana (27:30):

I think these are fair points. Very good. You guys. How are you feeling? I think we got to go out into the world. I like this interview. I feel like we’ve shit on this conference for long enough. But do you have any final bullets? I love you. I love you though.


I didn’t shit on the conference.


No, no, no, no. Well that was sort of a miss categorization,

Kenn (27:49):

the ideology of conferences or like the, uh, the business model of conferences is all us. It’s like, I don’t hate police. I hate the police system. That’s, you know what I mean? I don’t just go up to a cop and say, I hate you. I’m just, I hate the way they set up your job model. That sucks to be you. I’m sorry.

Kenn (28:02):

But they have to have, uh, they have to have a financial incentive of course. But they can do that by attracting more sponsors, by having more attendees because the ticket prices lower, et cetera.

Kenn (28:10):

Selling tickets for live streams maybe, you know with like live streaming it instead of doing it on YouTube or whatever, you know, library or these other applications, you could put up a $5 Bitcoin paywall and you send $5 worth of Bitcoin. You tune into the live stream and now you have a digital ticket. There’s other ways to monetize a lot of this. The problem is they’re all either legacy event organizers that did like car shows and art gallery things, you know, other events and it’s just like, Oh, Bitcoin’s cool. I bet I could put that together. They don’t live in our community. They don’t live in our culture. They don’t know how to utilize. Like there’s a reason why that ticket isn’t an NFT and tokenize and why, how easy it is for me to get a ticket from somebody that doesn’t have my name on it.

Kenn (28:45):

There’s a reason why Moe didn’t do that. He does not live crypto. He doesn’t know how to utilize all these things that are blockchain, art, cryptocurrency, all these features into his conference cause he doesn’t even know they exist because he’s not encompass. He doesn’t know. He knows how to do an organize an event and that’s amazing. This event, I love the North American Bitcoin conference. Do not get me wrong. I’m just saying I’ll never pay for a ticket. I’ll just show up and do what I can by showing up and cause I can’t afford it. If you can, great, do it. But don’t let these prices of these tickets deter you from coming out here and hanging out with Bobby Lee. You know, hanging out with Brock Pierce, rubbing elbows with Nick, all of those things don’t cost money. You don’t have to have a ticket for these things. You know, it’s all happening in a lobby and outside at these after parties and stuff. So don’t let it deter you from experiencing all of this.

Tatiana (29:37):

Awesome. All right, everybody, thanks for listening to the Tatiana show and the HODLCast combo special talking with Kenn Bozak. Ken, where can people find you?

Kenn (29:48):

Uh, you can find me on PornHub. Ken Bozek, a K E N N B O S A K and a have a day.

Sasha (29:54):

Do you actually do porn?

Kenn (29:56):

Yeah, yeah, I do have a porn hub that is real and I used to do porn for sure. Yeah. My partner is an adult cam model, so I used to do live streaming for like chatter bait or MyFreeCams or right now, like spank chain and stuff like that.

Tatiana (30:09):

So does that mean that people can watch you having sex on the internet?

Kenn (30:14):

Yeah, yeah. There’s videos of me and her and stuff. Yeah, they actually, one of the most popular videos is me getting Felicia on top of a building on the middle of the highway.

Sasha (30:23):

How popular, like, how many views are we talking?

Kenn (30:26):

A couple, like maybe 10,000, 20,000 views, something like that. And it’s pretty decent sales. Uh, she, it’s funny she did a run of our content because, uh, my following on Twitter and a bunch of my followers ended up like buying it and stuff and like, it was just funny. You know, it’s just, it is what it is. And you know, my, you know, you know how the joker says, my mom says if you’re good at something, don’t do it for free. So monetized it.

Tatiana (30:47):

Wow. Okay. This is an interesting episode. I feel like it also belongs on proof of love. You will have to have you on to proof of love Sasha. You can come on that show too though. Be fun. I think the girls would enjoy that. So, uh, thank you everybody for tuning into the Tatyana show and the huddle cast. Check out Ken stuff’s part, your local crypto conferences and we’ll see you next time. Thank you.

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